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Listen to Episode 114

Josh is joined by Chris Phillips, Development Services Director for the City of Mount Vernon, WA, to talk about how they’ve been using technology to streamline their planning and permitting processes, inspections and overall communications before and during COVID-19. 

Watch the video of Josh and Chris chatting, too!

Show Notes: 

Show Script:

Josh Peach  
Welcome to the Operate Intelligently Podcast, the podcast for all things operations.

Hello, Operate Intelligently podcast listeners. This is Joshua Peach and I am really excited here today to have, way over on the west coast, I'm on the east coast, in the city of Mount Vernon: Chris Phillips, who is the Director of Development Services there. Welcome, Chris to the podcast. And thanks for making some time for this. I think we asked you to be on yesterday and we scheduled it this afternoon, which is quick turnaround time.

Chris Phillips  
My pleasure, Josh, it's great to be with you today.

Josh Peach  
So I'll be honest with you. I'm not familiar, I don't believe I've ever been to Mount Vernon. So tell me a little bit about your community and the area that you live and work in?

Chris Phillips  
Sure. The city of Mount Vernon sits between two major metropolitan areas. We've got Seattle, Washington, that's about an hour and a half south and then an hour and a half north of us is Vancouver, British Columbia. We sit in the, we're nested between those two in a place called the Skagit Valley. And in the Skagit Valley, we are the seat of the county government. And we're the largest municipality out of about six or seven municipalities that are located within Skagit Valley, our population is approximately 35,000 people. Major drivers here are the agricultural business that we have. We're well known for our brain sciences, working very closely with Washington State University. So if you're a microbrewer or a distiller, you probably have heard of the grains that we grow out here, because they're a high commodity. They're also known for our potato farming out here and a variety of other culinary delights. They have a lot of farm to market opportunities here. And then we also have the port of Skagit, which has a variety of businesses that are located around it, and also the port of Anacortes, Washington, which has a major maritime factor associated with it. We're also known for our tulips and our daffodils. So this is the month basically the month of April, where we have people coming from all over the world or we would have people coming from all over the world to kind of come to our particular area and enjoy the flowers as well as the local cuisine and wines. 

Josh Peach  
So that area is a tourist also area that's near though that must be near our, I may say it wrong all the time, though. Poulsbo. 

Chris Phillips  
Yeah, so Poulsbo is located on the other side of the peninsula. For us, we are really we've got 15 to 20 minutes you're in the mountains and 25 minutes you're in the Puget Sound. So literally you could go hiking in the morning, and then the afternoon catch a charter to go out and go salmon fishing it's just that nice.

Josh Peach  
Now that you told me that and putting it in relation, I've actually been through it, I haven't been to it. So it is absolutely beautiful. So you know, here we are. If this was any other April, you'd be warming up for daffodil festivals and parades and all sorts of fun stuff. But instead we're in this thing known as COVID-19 and basically locked down, stay in place. As I shared with you, I just read this article that you guys are in one of these hot areas or epicenters, you had a choir that was playing with 112 people and I think 50 or more of them actually came down Coronavirus positive. So you've got quite a few people in your area that have the virus that are battling it. So you're doing a lot of things and you've had to take a lot of steps and stages in the last three weeks/month, probably well before that, to prepare yourself for delivering work as usual, while keeping more than social distance in many ways. Tell me a little bit about what you're doing.

Chris Phillips  
Sure, you're absolutely right, Josh, I mean, things have been so fluid out here. As I would like to say it's been a very iterative process. I mean, literally, information is changing, you know, day to day as relates to the COVID-19 medical emergency. It is one that has definitely impacted our town and our community. We have what is close to being a shelter in place here by Governor Inslee, and again, there were a variety of, I think the edic was probably or protocol was probably about 12 to 15 pages long. So you could find out what was essential businesses that could be open. And then what are those non-essential businesses that needed or were required to be closed? And then how was the enforcement process going to be handled? So there's a variety of things that were going on in relationship to those particular federal and state mandates. One of the things that our mayor did, her name is Jule Boudreau, I mean very early in the process, almost a month ago declared an emergency in response to the COVID-19 medical emergency, worked very closely with the county government as the county declared an emergency. And again, just so that we were available to federal or state aid when it became available, and as you know, just a few days ago, Congress passed, President signed that $2 trillion budget for that piece of legislature to assist local municipalities as well as public and private ventures that are out there. For us, this journey really started almost two and a half years ago. So by way of just introduction, I'm a 30 year retired Navy veteran. My last job was running the Naval Air Station out here in Whidby Island from 2011 through my retirement in 2015. And then I got into public administration as a city administrator first for three years in city of Mukilteo, Washington, which is a little bit further south in here. And then most recently as a development services director, and when I got here, Mayor Boudreau challenged me as well as my team and development services to really create a state of the art 21st century planning and permitting department. I had been a part of my other duties is in facility maintenance management, so I was very familiar with Dude Solutions and how they work in the cloud-based system. So in our early assessment phase back in 2017, we looked at a variety of cloud-based permitting tools that were out there. We ended up selecting SmartGov, which ultimately was bought out by Dude Solutions a little over maybe a year and a half or two years ago. So we've been extremely pleased with our facilitation, our training, our integration with SmartGov, and then most recently with their integration of another software system called BlueBeam, which allows us to do electronic plan review. So I'll talk internal to the staff first, what we did was we purchased the whole staff of 15 individuals all have laptops, which allow us to undock, go do group training sessions, and there was a plan that was invoked probably about a year ago that we could actually start telecommuting, nothing new to the private sector. But for the public sector, there was not a whole lot of activity that I talked to you if anybody actually working from home to do this. So we had tested it, we beta tested it in 2018. We implemented a little bit of it in 2019. And that was one aspect of it. The other thing we did was taking a look at our inspection routine where you could go on SmartGov, you could do your inspection process online to request an inspection. What we did with each one of our inspectors as well as code enforcement is that we work with other municipalities who had mobile offices and kind of took their concept but we Mount Vernon-ized it, if you will. In it, we have mobile Wi-Fi, they can undock and take their laptops out there as well as Android or iPhones. We've got some folks who like either model, but what that allows us to do is right on station, you know go do the inspection, we can upload that information and because it's a cloud-based tool, you get immediate action or a response to the developer or the resident so that they can continue that, you know, predictable path to completion for a variety of commercial or residential pieces of property that might be being developed. The other aspect that we wanted to go ahead and bring into this was for our pre-application meetings, we bought smart boards, we included upgrades to our conferencing center down here to enable webinars, and also remote access via Zoom. So we've already been implementing all of that activity prior to the COVID-19 medical emergency. Now, three weeks ago, just by chance, I sat down with my prior military background, and we did some crisis action planning. We just sat down with my managers and we talked about a variety of different activities that we could use our new technology, and how will we sit there and as something was, like this medical emerging has evolved over days, weeks and everything, to not only inform internally to our staff, but also externally to our customers, our residents, our developers, and making sure that it was a good symbiotic, you know, relationship of information transfer. And what we ended up doing there, Josh was four major aspects of the permitting process. We, with our pre-application meetings, we utilize Zoom technology to go ahead and do web conferencing. So that worked out really well. And we beta tested that with a few folks back in Cleveland that we that we work with here on a variety of projects and other places in the US so that hey, this actually works and we're good to go with exchanging that information and data. Some rather complex drawings, if you could imagine for, you know, 40-50,000 square foot facilities that are being built and all the intricate details that are associated with those plans, were able to sit there and share that and work that aspect of it. The next piece of it dealt with utilizing an FTP site. And so instead of having a customer come into the building, provide a set of plans or to be able to submit across the counter, City Hall basically closed to the public a few weeks ago, and within, it was less than 24 hours FTP site set up, our crew tested it out, we beta tested it with a few local developers as well as engineers or surveyors. They were able to exchange information back and forth. So we actually virtualized if you will, not a word, but you know, we conducted a virtual, technically complete permit process as well as a counter-complete process for some of those more detailed processes. And then we're able to help, you know, ma and pa's that may be doing a variety of different things at home, we were able to help that out. Through this whole process, we updated our website, we pushed information out to as many folks that we could possibly do; Chamber of Commerce, a variety of the rotary, I mean, whoever we could get information out to we got it so that people would be informed for pushing that information out. And then we also would update our SmartGov portal, and we update our website. Those are interconnected, interlinked. The next thing that we did was basically getting into the permit itself. And this is where SmartGov is just an awesome tool is that you know, once you submit and you get your username and password. What we have done over the last 18 months has gone from somebody needing to come in with nine sets of plans to just the thumb drive and one set of plans, because the state tells us we have to, so it's law. And we're just electronically just pulling ourselves into the 21st century. And it has been just wonderful. Where projects would be eight, nine banker boxes full of paper, we're less than a file now. And that's like no kidding in there. Another thing that we've been able to do is through this permitting process, once you get your unique username and password, you're able to get the full suite of everything that SmartGov has to offer. So this gets into submitting documents, this gets into if we're cycling, you know, so maybe the first set of plans has a deficiency to it, you're going to, you know, resubmit; all of that is now done online. You don't even need to come to the counter to do that. And then you think about inspections, electronic bill pay that we've integrated. Just to give you an idea last year, we were about a month and a half into it, we did a whole whopping $4,000 online. This year March over $250,000 we did with online. So this is saving finance people time, it's saving my permit text time, it's saving the customer time. This is a win win win across a myriad of different areas. So wonderful there. And then the last aspect of it is when it comes to your inspections, we integrated Skype. This was something that we heard another municipality doing, call them up and they were talking about how it worked but having difficulties with it. We've integrated Skype. So it started out initially with the COVID, we were doing internal projects, say like looking at a water heater or something like that, that we didn't want our inspectors going into a private home. This provided a capability they could pull up, they could wave to the person who was inside the door. They get their Skype opportunities going, they're you know talking about what the aspects of the inspection are, they would complete the process. The individual knew it was completed, our inspector is, you know, updating the information via the cloud, and they're getting an immediate approval or re-inspection that would be required. I mean, just right there, not anything but hand signals and some integration between some software. What that ended up morphing into because the, as you know, the medical emergency has evolved over the last few weeks is that all inspections now are done via Skype. So whether it was an internal, say a tenant improvement type of inspection, or if it was an inspection at a new construction site, whether it be for engineering purposes, meaning your utilities being cut in, all of that is now being conducted via Skype, and it's working like a charm.

Josh Peach  
So you just started doing the Skype when COVID hit that wasn't a process that you had in place prior to that? So this whole COVID happened and you implemented Skype on the fly or were you testing it before that?

Chris Phillips  
On the fly, brother.

Josh Peach  
Wow

Chris Phillips  
It was nine days. And this is what's so awesome about the team that we have here. One of our methodologies as I like to say of like troubleshooting or when we have an issue come up is we flatten the organization like a pancake. Everybody's in the room, the end user who could be an inspector, their supervisor, a manager, myself as the director, and quite frankly it doesn't matter what your rank is, we're trying to figure out, how are we going to do this? What are the ways that we're looking to do this? Okay, once we're in agreement with all that I've got a group of people who would do the administrative type of standard operating procedures, kind of working that out with the technician. Once we got that they bring it to me because quite frankly, I'm the lowest common denominator in the group. If they can explain it to me, that's good. And then we'll go out and start beta tests and we'll do an iterative process to make sure that we get it right Lean Six Sigma in there, making sure that again, everything makes sense to the customer. And then we asked some of our more trusted, larger developers that we have in the area, Hey, could you give this a go, we want to try this out with you first, work out some of the kinks. But less than less than 24 hours, we were out doing Skype inspections. Pretty amazing.

Josh Peach  
That is really amazing. And that's the free, low cost, no cost tip for people that, you know, one of the things in this situation, this environment, everything that you're talking about that you're doing those steps and our solutions, which is great. You had some lead time and preparing for a good portion of that. There's a number of folks out there that have that online permitting capability, but are getting the results of the $4,000 opposed to the $250,000 that are going to get they're going to get bombarded now with with online, people going online because town halls are closed. So what do you do and so I think that the Zoom and the Skype, I hadn't heard the Skype idea yet, as a matter of fact, in my own community, on one of the Facebook bashing threads, as I like to call them, you know the local Facebook pages that are trying to do all the right things and keep informed with your community. You know, one of the people said, Oh, building inspectors and going out and checking on things, and this person's not going out checking on things. And I'm sitting here going, Well, how the heck are they supposed to check on things? And how are they supposed to do their inspections, and you just gave me that the inside line that I can go ahead and put this on that post and say, hey, maybe maybe we can start looking at Skype or some of these other things. So a couple of quick takeaway tools of leveraging outside of us would be utilizing Zoom for your teams, meetings, get togethers and some of your planning. You said FTP site, talk a little bit about that FTP site, if you would for folks in case they're not familiar with that and what why that second piece is coming into play. It's more detailed you said, right?

Chris Phillips  
Yeah, so it's a file transfer system process. And basically, this takes the place of like an intake meeting. So for most municipalities that are out there, this would be something that would be done at the front counter. So what we also did at our front counter is, once we started instituting SmartGov, we noticed there was less foot traffic coming in, which is exactly what we wanted. The second thing that we did was, you know what, this gives us an opportunity to build basically or construct two kiosks out front. So we've got two screens on either side, if you can imagine with a wireless mouse and keyboard so that as the more complex projects would come in, say for a large plan unit development, you know, with a few hundred homes or something like that, they could come with a thumb drive, they follow our electronic submittal requirements, bring in one hardcopy, and with their thumb drive, we just do an intake session. Well, now that FTP site basically takes that place This is an open forum where, again, a permit tech would be there talking with our customer, developer, or contractor. And then utilizing that FTP site is just exchanging information back and forth to make sure that, that submittal meets all the requirements that the city needs in order to process the permit. So for instance, you know, you need a native version of a plan set for Bluebeam to actually work which allows us to mark up a variety of projects. So your engineering inspector, I'm sorry, your engineering manager, my senior planner, my building official, the fire marshal, all have a different color, if you will, when they go into this markup tool that allows them to go in at the same time. SmartGov allows us to go in at the same time. They can all make their mark offs, but the cool thing is, is once they're all done, it generates one set of marked up plans with one deficiency letter with all four of the managers information in there, once that is saved in the system that is what's transmitted back to our good friends, the developer, and then their team can go ahead and break that apart, see what they need to go and do and then the resubmittal process starts over again, which is much similar to the first one that I talked about. But all this would be done online and if you ever needed a permit tech, all it is is just giving a phone call and email and then we're ready to rock and roll.

Josh Peach  
Well, I mean, you guys have you know, one of the biggest things that I've found is with this whole coronavirus, COVID-19, unlike any other tragedy or difficulty or recession or anything that we've had in my career anyway, going back to, you know, Y2K, which a lot of people don't even know we forget about how devastating the fact that digits in the computer we're going to shut everything down. This is unike anything else, because it changes every day, the rules change every day. The environment changes every day, the support mechanisms change every day. You guys seem to be really keeping up, keeping pace and keeping things moving and adjusting on the fly as needed, what are some, you know, whether it's attitude mindset meetings, is it you know, what are some of your tricks of the trade that's causing me to sit here and go: wow Mount Vernon's really got it going on? Even though you're in one of the hotbeds of positive activity areas, you know, what are some of the challenges that you've overcome? And how did you do it? And then how are you able to keep such a great mindset and eye on the prize focus with everything that's going on around you?

Chris Phillips  
Well, so one of my favorite comedians is David Chappelle. So one of his things he's got when keeping it real goes wrong. So what I tell my staff is, you know, what do you have when keeping it real goes right, you know? So here's where I'm at number one, as we're chatting here, what you see is what you get. Quite frankly, and with my background, I've been trained basically to go and do a variety of different things, and the taxpayers have always put me in a position to succeed. So from a standpoint of, I call it, you know, the red horde coming over the city lines with the guns a blazing. This, isn't it, but it's probably as close as you know, in the civilian sector, you're going to see something. This is a, you know, again, a medical emergency of mass proportions. I mean, the only thing that we prepare for out here would be that mother of all earthquakes, it's it's been on the horizon for a while and how we can plan to take care of that. Well, in my opinion, minus out the earthquake, and you plus in the medical emergency, and quite frankly, if you train to that one level, we're ready to work. So this is one thing I did and again, it's a very small staff, that's only 18 folks that are in here. But we really took the opportunity to get down to the brass tacks about what's important. The other thing was is that prior to this even happening, that troubleshooting or that continuous process improvement is flattened in the organization like a pancake. Just being just because I'm the senior guy in the room doesn't mean I'm the smartest person in the room. I don't have all the answers. My team has more of those answers than what I do. I just need to, again, in some way, make myself vulnerable, in the sense that, although I am the leader, I want to hear from them. And I've got to build this trust and confidence between our teams so that again, at the end of the day, they know that I've got their back, and they know that I've got their back. So both both ways that chain of command flows. Now I will let you know I feel much better on the Napoleonic side of the house with chain of command. It's very traditional, where there's a bottom and the top. Leaping on that other side, though, I found through my 30 year Navy career that it really does allow for these great ideas to come up. And again, it doesn't really matter who gets the credit. I will always take the responsibility if stuff goes wrong, but I want to foster that team to just think out of the box. If there comes a time I need to pound them back in the box, I'll do that. I know how to make that happen. But on the flip side of it, I just want to make sure that I am setting conditions for success. So leaving that as the foundational portion of your your few questions you had in there. What we do is I meet with my team now, basically, when we got to the point where we were telecommuting, so where other departments and other cities either shut down, and I mean, there are some that are in the county here that just completely shut down. We are not we are operating like everybody's here. So we telecommute. I've got 14 of 18 people telecommuting right now. We all know about what accountability is, they know what responsibility is. We meet every morning for 15 minutes, I go through the four divisions that work for me, meet with the managers as well as the employees. They share information, I get an end of work report of what's been accomplished, I'm able to go into, this is the wonderful thing again about SmartGov is that I can see every keystroke if I wanted to. I trust my team much more than that, but I could if I wanted to, but I can go to to do lists, and I can see every single thing that they are doing, you know, in the system as they're working through their administrative workflows. I can see it all, you know. Now I'm not a micromanager, by any stretch. I look at the end game, I want the mission, I need the mission to be complete. I need things to be seamless. And that's the best thing is the reflection coming back from the community and from our development teams. Those guys have let us know what's working, what's not. If we have a minor tweak to do, we'll go ahead and do it on the fly. We're beta tested with the person who had the issue. So again, that continuous process improvement does not mean constructive dissatisfaction. I had a nice boss that hopefully if he listens to this podcast, that's how he was. He wasn't happy. He wasn't happy about anything, didn't matter who did it. It just seemed to be, you know, ungrateful and unhappy. That is not what we have here. These guys I'm telling you, it is a force multiplier that I've seen that when you build that trust and confidence with your team, and you're working through a variety of challenges, man, it is amazing to sit there and look at what they come up with in order to address these very complex issues that we have going on. So the morning meeting in there, throughout the day, I'm emailing and phone calling, you know, keeping abreast of what's happening, which critical mass, where they need my help. I tell you what, day one, maybe probably half dozen phone calls and a few emails. Now we're in a decent battle rhythm. Man, it is just it's going you know. At the end of the day report, usually after I get back home I go on a nice long run, get back, check what's happened that day. I'm usually the first one, I am still coming to work. So I'm physically here at the office, although I could be telecommuting under the current set of rules that we have. I'm one of the few that is here at city hall with other essential workers that kind of keep things going. But where other departments like I said, that might be kind of going through some nuances, those nuances aren't aren't here with us. Like I said, it's really been quite remarkable to see how things have worked and they've worked better than I anticipated them to be. So hopefully that answers your questions.

Josh Peach  
Yeah, no, it absolutely does and it touches on you know, one of the things on this podcast that we really want to do, especially in this time, you know, we definitely want to help our Dude Mation, and understanding how we can help from our solution suite and the difference that we can make, and you did that. What you just did was you just answered with a couple things that I that from a personal perspective that anyone can take away and leverage and utilize in their day to day. I think one of the first piece about flattening the pancake, that is also one of the great books that I've read was Afterburner Inc's Flawless Execution. I'm not sure if you're familiar with those guys. But Afterburner Inc is a it's a group of fighter pilots, retired fighter pilots that started a business development program and the book is called Flawless Execution and it's the circle of the the fighter pilots mission from the briefing to the execution, then at the end is the debrief, and their debrief consisted of everyone pulling their rank, everyone was exactly the same level, and they had an open discussion as to what happened, what could be done better, how should we look at and evaluate and start to figure out how to build off of that. Sounds like that's a lot what you do with your team is, hey, let's not worry about who's where on the poll here. Let's let's get to the root of the challenge that we have and come up with a solution.

Chris Phillips  
Would it be interesting to let you know that I am a recovering naval aviator?

Josh Peach  
Oh, wow. Well, there you go. 

Chris Phillips  
You hit the nail on the head, man. That's exactly what I think about. I think about the brief, the mission, the debrief. Then the next thing you do is okay, how we are going to A. build on what we just did that cause a little bit of anxiety out there, you know, so you definitely want to have the lessons learned. That, to me, that is the most integral part of what's going on. I can brief, I can fly it, I can debrief the mission, what went right, what went wrong? And then the next part of that is okay, what can I put into that do loop to make it so I don't have that same experience again. If it was a negative type of experience, or if it was a white knuckle event, if you will, you know. I don't want to go through the white knuckle event thing if I can train to something so that when I have that happen again, that white knuckle event just becomes like any other event that I'm getting, I'm just taking a look at it. I've thought about it, and I'm reacting to the training that I've already been given, or I've already thought about, or I've already discussed with another aviator, or in this case, another one. So I'll also let you know, you know if anybody out there in podcast land desires to, to get any of this information I have, much like I did my time in the Navy, you take the name off the top of it, I'll send it to you in a Word document and you can look like a superstar. That's the idea. Nobody's getting the credit. I just want to make sure that everybody can learn from what we're going through, integrate those things, it's not rocket science. And if I think if you ask people if they know or people who know me, they will tell you I am not a rocket scientist, but very practical, very realistic about how to go about doing business. And then like I said, really what it comes down to is, you lead people, you manage things, and that is one of the things that I learned again, all the way back to my time at the at the Naval Academy was, you know, leading people it's a science and working with them and understanding that emotional intelligence piece to making a team function at the highest capability that it possibly can. Whether it's a two person team, or a 1,000 person team doesn't matter, same techniques. On the management side of the house is giving individuals the tools they need the training they need to complete their job. So my mantra has always been: train, staff and equip. I stole that from chief petty officers from years ago who taught me and trained me what it was that is not about me. It's about the people that I serve. And as long as they have the tools to go, you know, complete their job, there's absolutely no reason why they shouldn't like you talked about with flattening the pancake. There's no reason why they can't be in the decision process. Because if they are, they own that process. At the end of the day, we got nobody to blame but ourselves. And if that's the case, well dang it, look to your left, look to your right, and let's figure out how we're going to move out.

Josh Peach  
100%. You said you said something truly pivotal there that I hope some folks take away with might be thinking about how they look at things if they're a manager or a leader and I'm fully on board with you manage things and lead people. But the leadership mindset that you shared is also more commonly referred to in a lot in the business side of things from Jim Collins' Good to Great book, which is looking out the mirror looking out the window or looking in the mirror, and this is a true leadership mindset, that if you have it, that'll get your team behind you that much quicker and and support you. And that looking out the window means when things are going well, and when things are well put together and when the execution is done, as flawlessly as possible or it looks that way, you look out the window to your team, and you recognize the greatness that they provided. And if it didn't go as smoothly as possible and could have gone better. The first place you got to look is in the mirror at yourself to see what could have been done a little bit differently. And I think, especially in times like now, those exemplary leaders are doing just that. I think those are some wonderful nuggets of knowledge that people can take away from right now and really get themselves back in. I think there's a lot of communities that are doing great things, that are really adjusting to all of this remarkably well. I think there's some that are really struggling and having some challenges so I think the new normal when this is all said and done, is gonna be leveraging these tools if you're already utilizing much more and much greater when they do have the ability to go back to town hall because they're going to realize how much smoother and easier it is because what you shared makes all the more sense than getting in your car and driving to town hall and doing all that work if you can avoid it. So yeah, well, Chris, I can't thank you enough for giving us your time here. I thank you for your service, not just in the Navy, but also in your community because it's evident that you're making a difference there and we really appreciate you. The Dudes beside you in all of this and just you know, stay safe and keep doing what you're doing because you are making that ultimate difference in your community that's needed. And I'm sure you're the beacon of light, you and your team are the beacon of light and hope out there that when you show up to someone's doorstep with a with a Skype call ready to go, they're comfortable knowing that that business is somewhat as usual and that you're taking care of things. So thank you so much. 

Chris Phillips  
Thank you, Josh. You have a great day. 

Josh Peach  
You too. And that'll do it for another episode of Operate Intelligently. As you can see, Dude Nation is strong, people are jumping on and helping out and giving their insight and help with this. If you're in facilities, if you're in local government, Senior Health living, I'm reaching out to a zoo to have them on to hear about what they're challenged with, with this whole thing, because this is not paint by numbers. This is definitely something that we've never experienced. Everybody's dealing with it differently. And if we can pull some best practices and help just one organization do a little bit different or a little bit better, then we're winning. So in the meantime, stay safe everybody and thanks for listening. 

Thanks for listening to the Operate Intelligently Podcast produced by Dude Solutions. You can reach us by emailing dspodcast@dudesolutions.com or check us out on the web at dudesolutions.com

Transcribed by https://otter.ai
 

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